Author Topic: Help with a topic concerning the Liceity of Actions by Traditionalists  (Read 3775 times)

Mysterium Fidei

Re: Help with a topic concerning the Liceity of Actions by Traditionalists
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2017, 03:51:42 PM »
I don't really think they are going to get a "conservative" though. 40% of all ‘cardinals’ of voting age have been named by “Pope” Francis, so I think Bergoglio's Brave New World is going to just keep going in the same direction.
 

2Vermont

Re: Help with a topic concerning the Liceity of Actions by Traditionalists
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2017, 03:55:09 PM »
I don't really think they are going to get a "conservative" though. 40% of all ‘cardinals’ of voting age have been named by “Pope” Francis, so I think Bergoglio's Brave New World is going to just keep going in the same direction.

I actually agree with that...which would be a good thing for those who seem to think the Crisis is "just about Francis".  Perhaps a Francis II will open their eyes that they should look further in the past for the reasons for the Crisis (i.e. Vatican II and all of the Vatican II anti-popes).
"Anything, but sedevacantism"

(If you are open to sedevacantism and not a rabid anti-sede, then this is not about you)
 

TKGS

Re: Help with a topic concerning the Liceity of Actions by Traditionalists
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2017, 05:27:04 PM »
Disclaimer: I didn't take the SV position until December 2013.

While my conversion to the sv position wasn't motivated purely by the emotional rejection of Bergoglio, I have to admit that Bergoglio was certainly a major influence on my decision to investigate the sv position.  I agree that there are some who only reject Frank and they will go back to the Conciliar Church as soon as someone a little less odious than him gets elected.  But those people are usually easily identified because they all think Benedict is the still the pope (resignationists).  Maybe I'm wrong about this but I think most people who take the sv position were convinced by the well-reasoned and articulate arguments presented by so many folks who had already taken the position.  Bergoglio may have given us a kick in the butt but he didn't carry us.

I certainly hope that you are correct.  Those who saw Bergoglio, decided that he simply can't be the pope, and then actually started looking at the whole issue may be able to resist Conciliarism.  From what I read, however, it simply seems to me that most newly minted sedevacanatists have only Bergoglio as their objection and don't really want to discuss any real foundations.  I hope I'm wrong.
 
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Rubecorks

Re: Help with a topic concerning the Liceity of Actions by Traditionalists
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2017, 05:38:00 PM »
Francis will die, and another take his place. Consider when these pseudo-sedes accept the new man - if this new man doesn't condemn Francis, they will have a tough time explaining how a true pope could not condemn a previous false pope.

 
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tlm97

Re: Help with a topic concerning the Liceity of Actions by Traditionalists
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2017, 07:18:14 PM »
So what all are the conditions for being a good sede. Who makes the rules?  Sounds like you guys cant even agree on the meaning of a simple word.
It is error to believe that Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.
-Bl. Pope Pius IX
 

Rubecorks

Re: Help with a topic concerning the Liceity of Actions by Traditionalists
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2017, 07:49:00 PM »
So what all are the conditions for being a good sede. Who makes the rules?  Sounds like you guys cant even agree on the meaning of a simple word.

You should finish discussions you have already started, rather than try to get away from them and enter new comments.

Sedevacantist isn't a doctrine. It's a term invented in 1973 without even being in a dictionary. No surprise if there is a discrepancy on its precise meaning. The historical context does show that false popes due to Vatican II, are an intrinsic part of its meaning.
 
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TKGS

Re: Help with a topic concerning the Liceity of Actions by Traditionalists
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2017, 06:24:10 AM »
Francis will die, and another take his place. Consider when these pseudo-sedes accept the new man - if this new man doesn't condemn Francis, they will have a tough time explaining how a true pope could not condemn a previous false pope.

And since when has consistency been a requirement for the Recognize and Resist folks?
 
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Nick

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Re: Help with a topic concerning the Liceity of Actions by Traditionalists
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2017, 09:01:35 AM »
Francis will die, and another take his place. Consider when these pseudo-sedes accept the new man - if this new man doesn't condemn Francis, they will have a tough time explaining how a true pope could not condemn a previous false pope.

And since when has consistency been a requirement for the Recognize and Resist folks?

Some are known to be Consistently 'Stubborn' LOL
"Now when [a pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church, and the Church must either deprive him, or, as some say, declare him deprived, of his Apostolic See, and must say as St. Peter did: Let another take his bishopric.".      St. Francis de Sales.
 
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Re: Help with a topic concerning the Liceity of Actions by Traditionalists
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2017, 09:21:09 AM »
Wenceslav,

I hope you keep us posted on the discussion and on any salient or sticking points. 

I think that one point everyone can agree on,  regarding the traditional clergy, is that their response was inferior.  The ideal solution would have been that in the late 60s or early 70s (when the SSPX was getting off the ground and when a noticeable amount of Catholic clergy and faithful began to cling to the Old Mass and reject the New), the conservative bishops would have called a general council to declare Rome vacant. 

Not doing this set in motion a chain of events and a standard of behavior that has not solved any of the major problems-- it basically was a rush to place a patient on life support whose condition could have been treated. 

Anyone who would say that the restoration of the Church and resolution of the crisis depends on a pope could not help but agree that the traditionalist response was far from ideal.  The best chance there was to make this happen was proximate to the reforms, when there were still many ordinaries and a generation of Catholics who'd been raised correctly. 

If we cede all of the above, then there are legitimate questions to be asked regarding the quality and nature of their actions.  I've shared my opinion already, that I do not regard them as unlawful.  But I still think it's a legitimate discussion to be had rather than stifled.  I think ignoring the question implies that the traditionalist response was exactly what it should have been.  But if we reject that premise, then it follows that there are points of contention worthy of hashing out. 
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Re: Help with a topic concerning the Liceity of Actions by Traditionalists
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2017, 09:26:11 AM »
So what all are the conditions for being a good sede. Who makes the rules?  Sounds like you guys cant even agree on the meaning of a simple word.

I'm liking our resident troll.
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