Author Topic: Last Pope?  (Read 581 times)

ClemensMaria

Last Pope?
« on: November 18, 2017, 07:03:18 PM »
Dr. Chojnowski recently posted an article in which he quotes Jean Guitton quoting Pope Pius XII claiming he would be the last pope.  http://radtradthomist.chojnowski.me/2017/11/what-did-he-mean-fr-luigi-villa-said.html?m=1
 
The following users thanked this post: Nick

Rubecorks

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2017, 05:28:31 AM »
Better left unsaid if the actual words, and context of those words, cannot be produced.

 

ClemensMaria

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2017, 08:15:25 PM »
Better left unsaid if the actual words, and context of those words, cannot be produced.

The actual words are produced.  Dr. Chojnowski is quoting an article by Frank Rega (http://divinefiat.blogspot.com/2017/11/pius-xii-himself-said-he-was-last-pope.html) who is well-known among traditional Catholics for having published a biography of Padre Pio.  Mr. Rega is quoting Fr. Luigi Villa (of whom Chojnowski reports was a sede vacantist when he died 11/18/2012).  Fr. Villa claimed to have been commanded by Padre Pio, "You must dedicate your entire life to defend the Church of Christ from the work of Freemasonry and Ecclesiastical Masonry."  Mr. Rega obviously believes Fr. Villa to be trustworthy.  I believe Fr. Villa is also one of the people responsible for producing the documentation of all the prelates in and around the Vatican who were Freemasons.  Here is what Fr. Villa wrote in his open letter on John XXIII (John XXIII “Blessed”, Too?):

Quote
Wrote Jean Guitton (Pantheist and Bergsonian), friend of G. B. Montini, “ Pius XII knew it, he himself said he was the ‘last Pope’ , the last link of a long chain” (23).

23. “30 Giorni” , year X, n. 11, November 1992, p. 70.

I don't have access to the November 1992 edition of 30Days so I can't confirm the quote.  But I have no reason to doubt it either.  In any case, 30Days was a magazine started by the American Fr. Fessio and run by an Italian Giulio Andreotti although in 1992 it was being run by someone else.  It was a well-respected magazine until it shut down in 2012.  I would be surprised if they published unsubstantiated material.  But it does appear to be an interview with Jean Guitton who died in March 1999.  I would think that if Jean Guitton were misquoted he could have had a correction published in 1992/93.  Jean Guitton was a friend of G. Montini (aka Paul VI).  http://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/27/arts/jean-guitton-97-philosopher-author-and-friend-of-popes.html  You are right that we don't have a context for the specific quote but 'last Pope' is quoted.  So in what context would Pope Pius XII's reference to himself as the 'last Pope' not mean what it literally means?

Or are you doubting the reliability of any of the above?

Just because it is sensational doesn't mean it didn't happen.  Of course, his claim to be the 'last Pope' was his own private opinion.  He didn't impose it on the Church.  So maybe he was wrong?  But the fact that he said it is fairly shocking.  And it certainly gives support to the idea that we actually are in the end times.
 

2Vermont

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2017, 04:46:12 AM »
Very interesting CM. 

Is it possible though that there was more to his quote?  He could have said, " I am the last pope to ........" which is very different than "I am the last pope".
"Anything, but sedevacantism"

(If you are open to sedevacantism and not a rabid anti-sede, then this is not about you)
 

annamack

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2017, 05:10:31 AM »
Better left unsaid if the actual words, and context of those words, cannot be produced.

Or are you doubting the reliability of any of the above?

Just because it is sensational doesn't mean it didn't happen.  Of course, his claim to be the 'last Pope' was his own private opinion.  He didn't impose it on the Church.  So maybe he was wrong?  But the fact that he said it is fairly shocking.  And it certainly gives support to the idea that we actually are in the end times.

I actually think that this is an entirely believable quote, as Pius XII must have been aware of what a weak pope he'd been and that he was no match for the Modernists (witness the Pian reforms).
 

TKGS

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 08:09:30 AM »
I will say that the difference between this quote and many others that traditional Catholics have been prone to believe is that this one is fully sourced.  It's not like, say, the Malachi Martin statements about things in which he wouldn't give any names or places and just said, essentially, "I was a big important man in the establishment--just believe me when I tell you..."

But I am also skeptical of quotes that appear years after the death of the parties involved and cannot be corroborated by anyone and no one seemed to have ever heard about these quotes earlier.  If the quote had been discovered in a contemporaneous diary entry only discovered after a person's death it would have more credibility.  I don't doubt at all that those involved in the report believe they are telling the truth, only that recollections of a conversation held years earlier may, in light of everything that has happened since, not be completely accurate.
 

ClemensMaria

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 10:20:02 AM »
Jean Guitton was around 90 years in 1992 so a faulty memory is believable.  Or it could be a misunderstanding.  But that is just a speculation.  The fact that he gave this testimony is significant.  Unlike Malachi Martin, Guitton doesn’t have a reputation for intentionally deceiving people.  So it is not unreasonable to trust his testimony.
 

ClemensMaria

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 10:26:46 AM »
There could be a context around the ‘last Pope’ but I’m having trouble imagining what it could be when it was obviously a statement which left a lasting impression on Guitton. I’m the last Pope to eat pizza in the 1940s doesn’t do it for me.  It has to be something significant to leave an impression on a man and cause him to remember it over 40 years later.
 
The following users thanked this post: Mithrandylan

TKGS

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 11:38:07 AM »
There could be a context around the ‘last Pope’ but I’m having trouble imagining what it could be when it was obviously a statement which left a lasting impression on Guitton. I’m the last Pope to eat pizza in the 1940s doesn’t do it for me.  It has to be something significant to leave an impression on a man and cause him to remember it over 40 years later.

Maybe the full quote is:  "I'm the last pope, etc."
 

2Vermont

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 04:33:52 PM »
There could be a context around the ‘last Pope’ but I’m having trouble imagining what it could be when it was obviously a statement which left a lasting impression on Guitton. I’m the last Pope to eat pizza in the 1940s doesn’t do it for me.  It has to be something significant to leave an impression on a man and cause him to remember it over 40 years later.

Oh yes, something significant.  I think we could probably come up with other ideas besides "to eat pizza...".
"Anything, but sedevacantism"

(If you are open to sedevacantism and not a rabid anti-sede, then this is not about you)