Author Topic: Last Pope?  (Read 596 times)

2Vermont

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 04:36:12 PM »
There could be a context around the Ďlast Popeí but Iím having trouble imagining what it could be when it was obviously a statement which left a lasting impression on Guitton. Iím the last Pope to eat pizza in the 1940s doesnít do it for me.  It has to be something significant to leave an impression on a man and cause him to remember it over 40 years later.

Maybe the full quote is:  "I'm the last pope, etc."

Ah yes, to go along with the Fatima quote:  "In Portugal the dogma of the faith will always be preserved, etc....."

Forgive me if I don't put too much stock in the alleged Pius XII quote.
"Anything, but sedevacantism"

(If you are open to sedevacantism and not a rabid anti-sede, then this is not about you)
 

Vinny Zee

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2018, 10:32:53 PM »
There could be a context around the ‘last Pope’ but I’m having trouble imagining what it could be when it was obviously a statement which left a lasting impression on Guitton. I’m the last Pope to eat pizza in the 1940s doesn’t do it for me.  It has to be something significant to leave an impression on a man and cause him to remember it over 40 years later.

From a legal, psychological and cognitive science perspective, there is the reality of confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias).  This is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions.  Confirmation bias is a phenomenon wherein decision makers have been shown to actively seek out and assign more weight to evidence that confirms their hypothesis, and ignore or under weigh evidence that could discredit their hypothesis. As such, it can be thought of as a form of selection bias in collecting evidence.

Therefore the suggestion, "I'm the last pope" could possibly have been attached to a larger statement and the rejection of this suggestion because, "it just doesn't do it for me," is an example of confirmation bias.  Due to the fact Sedes firmly believe Pius XII to be the last Pope, the suggestion he made such a statement confirming this seems to be something that will be accepted regardless or without any real thorough investigation.
 

Semperfidelis

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2018, 06:46:03 AM »
There could be a context around the Ďlast Popeí but Iím having trouble imagining what it could be when it was obviously a statement which left a lasting impression on Guitton. Iím the last Pope to eat pizza in the 1940s doesnít do it for me.  It has to be something significant to leave an impression on a man and cause him to remember it over 40 years later.

From a legal, psychological and cognitive science perspective, there is the reality of confirmation bias (or confirmatory bias).  This is a tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions.  Confirmation bias is a phenomenon wherein decision makers have been shown to actively seek out and assign more weight to evidence that confirms their hypothesis, and ignore or under weigh evidence that could discredit their hypothesis. As such, it can be thought of as a form of selection bias in collecting evidence.

Therefore the suggestion, "I'm the last pope" could possibly have been attached to a larger statement and the rejection of this suggestion because, "it just doesn't do it for me," is an example of confirmation bias.  Due to the fact Sedes firmly believe Pius XII to be the last Pope, the suggestion he made such a statement confirming this seems to be something that will be accepted regardless or without any real thorough investigation.

I concur.  Even if such a statement was said, I would be skeptical of a prophetic nature of any such statement given this crisis was largely unforseen and there are no recorded actions of Pope Pius XII preparing the flock for such an ordeal making his word and action consistent.  Such a statement is sensational, and even if true, if neither helpful or useful to know.  What value does it have for a sedevacantist?  What value for a non-sedevacantist who is rightly going to object that a pope is not infallible in such a statement?
 

ClemensMaria

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2018, 08:28:45 AM »
It is what it is.  Jean Guitton gave his testimony and you did not believe him.
 

MyrnaM

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2018, 09:54:09 AM »
Myforever.blog/blog
 

TKGS

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2018, 08:07:32 PM »
It is what it is.  Jean Guitton gave his testimony and you did not believe him.

Is it not also possible that your memory of the article is not completely accurate?
 

Vinny Zee

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2018, 10:51:08 PM »
It is what it is.  Jean Guitton gave his testimony and you did not believe him.

I never made the statement I didn't believe Jean Guitton or his testimony. My contention is that you (or those who support his claim) are applying confirmation bias to his statement, which would actually cause one to not weigh any other evidence to the contrary.  Wasn't Guitton a philosopher and theologian who was also the first lay person who was invited to oversee or observe Vatican II? Wasn't he a close friend of Paul VI? Either way, he was a laymen who is also entitled to his opinion and/or interpretation of a fact or set of circumstances.  I have no contention with any of this.  My contention is that because his statement is that Pius XII told him (in some form or fashion) he'd be the last Pope, it does not appear you'd be willing to investigate any evidence to the contrary. 
 

Nctradcath

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2018, 07:03:51 AM »
I doubt that the testimony of this one man is the only evidence that causes him to believe that Pius 12 was the last pope.
 

Vinny Zee

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2018, 08:09:36 AM »
I doubt that the testimony of this one man is the only evidence that causes him to believe that Pius 12 was the last pope.

ClemensMaria you mean? I would not say that either. I was not trying to imply the statement of Jean Guitton was the reason and only reason he was a sedevacantist. I have seen his other comments and I am sure he has other multiple reasons. The point of my argument was that the sedevacantist position could be the reason to cause one to have confirmation bias when analyzing the comments of Jean Guitton.
 

2Vermont

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2018, 08:42:18 AM »
I doubt that the testimony of this one man is the only evidence that causes him to believe that Pius 12 was the last pope.

ClemensMaria you mean? I would not say that either. I was not trying to imply the statement of Jean Guitton was the reason and only reason he was a sedevacantist. I have seen his other comments and I am sure he has other multiple reasons. The point of my argument was that the sedevacantist position could be the reason to cause one to have confirmation bias when analyzing the comments of Jean Guitton.

That may be true.  It may also be true that the non/anti-sedevacantist position will cause one to not even consider the comments of Jean Guitton.
"Anything, but sedevacantism"

(If you are open to sedevacantism and not a rabid anti-sede, then this is not about you)