Author Topic: Last Pope?  (Read 582 times)

TKGS

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2018, 08:45:43 AM »
Indeed.  Though I am sedevacantist, I question the quote's accuracy.  I've heard about this quote only in vague terms and I've heard about this quote only from various laymen who remember reading it but can't provide the context.  Even the quote from Fr. Villa's book doesn't really provide the context of the quotation, but rather draws conclusions about the quote that, seemingly, no other traditional or sedevacantist clergy has made.  [Is Fr. Villa even a traditionalist?]

Of course, we also know that at the time Pope Pius XII made the statement, he was the last pope in that no other pope had yet been elected.  To me, the statement sounds very much as if it could have been used in the same way that Scripture calls Jesus the "first born son" of Mary.  Protestants take that to infallibly mean that Mary had a second born son, etc.  Interestingly, very few sedevacantists take this purported quote as meaning that Pope Pius XII was prophesying that there would be no future pope.

If this quote was widely accepted then it would be widely proclaimed.  Instead, it is seldom quoted and virtually never used as any kind of evidence of sedevacantism.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 08:47:15 AM by TKGS »
 

Vinny Zee

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2018, 11:25:13 AM »

Due to the fact Sedes firmly believe Pius XII to be the last Pope, the suggestion he made such a statement confirming this seems to be something that will be accepted regardless or without any real thorough investigation.

Your comment above seemed to be applied to all sedes and yet a number of us questioned the quote.  Are you not showing your anti-sede bias here....again?

No there was no "anti-sede" bias and if you took it that way I am sorry. I was showing ClemensMaria that what sedes believe about Pius XII being the last pope could be a baseline for "confirmation bias" in a topic such as this thread. I say this because, if you read the thread, in response I believe to TKGS, he said, "That does not work for me."  I fully recognize this conversation was between all sedes and also observed some question the accuracy or legitimacy of the statement.  My point was really to ClemensMaria that confirmation bias can cause (as I said all camps) to not want to consider other positions or questions.
 

TKGS

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2018, 12:37:13 PM »

Due to the fact Sedes firmly believe Pius XII to be the last Pope, the suggestion he made such a statement confirming this seems to be something that will be accepted regardless or without any real thorough investigation.

Your comment above seemed to be applied to all sedes and yet a number of us questioned the quote.  Are you not showing your anti-sede bias here....again?

No there was no "anti-sede" bias and if you took it that way I am sorry. I was showing ClemensMaria that what sedes believe about Pius XII being the last pope could be a baseline for "confirmation bias" in a topic such as this thread. I say this because, if you read the thread, in response I believe to TKGS, he said, "That does not work for me."  I fully recognize this conversation was between all sedes and also observed some question the accuracy or legitimacy of the statement.  My point was really to ClemensMaria that confirmation bias can cause (as I said all camps) to not want to consider other positions or questions.

I agree.  Confirmation bias can indeed cause some people to simply reject evidence that does not comport to their already held opinion as well as accept any evidence that seems to confirm their already held opinion.

I would disagree with any assessment of the vast majority of sedevacantists (not saying that you have made this assessment) are guilty of confirmation bias in this regard.  Most sedevacantists changed their opinions, not out of some sort of confirmation bias, but because the actual evidence has convinced us that we were previously wrong.

And because this problem is so rare among sedevacantists, I seems that discussion in regard to how sedevacantists view the Crisis has no real place for the question of confirmation bias.  On the other hand, it seems to me that your comments regarding confirmation bias is much more applicable to how most R&R folks (especially those who are outspoken anti-sedevacantists) view the Crisis.
 

Vinny Zee

Re: Last Pope?
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2018, 12:45:10 PM »

On the other hand, it seems to me that your comments regarding confirmation bias is much more applicable to how most R&R folks (especially those who are outspoken anti-sedevacantists) view the Crisis.

I think in my first comment on confirmation bias I said, "both camps" but I really would extend it to all camps. It is just a fact of life. I am not saying I don't do it, because it is a natural human response. If anything, I would say that non-sedevantists probably have the toughest time with confirmation bias and how they view evidence to the contrary of their position.  I would probably also advocate that once one has come to accept sedevacantism they are probably more able to shed confirmation biases as sedevacantism really is a difficult position to accept. The amount of bias one would have to overcome to consider and then accept the position is enormous.  Heck the entire political system in the U.S. is one giant conglomerate of confirmation biases. However, the best investigator's in the world learned how to shed confirmation biases to carefully analyze evidence. 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 12:46:42 PM by Vinny Zee »