Author Topic: Torturing terrorists?  (Read 347 times)

Rubecorks

Re: Torturing terrorists?
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2017, 12:50:56 PM »
With about 2000 years of the Catholic Church, and many wars and persecutions, I know of no approved case for this. Either it is immoral, or else nobody saw the real value of the information that could be obtained by that means.

Torture was commonplace for much of those 2000 years, so unless you have evidence that the Church disapproved, your conclusion is pretty counterfactual. And the Church did instruct the inquisition to use torture to extract confessions from suspected heretics. That's a reasonably similar situation.

We aren't here talking about torture in general, but torture by a Catholic state for the purpose of obtaining information. I am unaware of any approved case, but, of course, negative evidence is not evidence. I invite someone to show a case of it for me to consider.

Common knowledge:

1. Catholic states routinely tortured people for information
2. The Church commanded them to torture heretics for information

Unsupported proof is as good as negative proof.

1. If it is common knowledge, please provide proof for this.
2. The Church didn't command that. The Church merely approved of the state's authority to deal with heretics as seditious to the state. Heretics were tortured in view of avoiding capital punishment and renouncement, not for information.


 

When Antisemites Attack!

Re: Torturing terrorists?
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2017, 01:05:50 PM »
Common knowledge:

1. Catholic states routinely tortured people for information
2. The Church commanded them to torture heretics for information

1. If it is common knowledge, please provide proof for this.

I'm not going to waste my time proving to someone playing dumb that Catholic authorities commonly tortured people in the middle ages.

Quote
2. The Church didn't command that. The Church merely approved of the state's authority to deal with heretics as seditious to the state. Heretics were tortured in view of avoiding capital punishment and renouncement, not for information.

Wrong on all counts. The bull Ad Extirpanda positively commanded the state to use torture to gather information from suspected heretics.

Quote
Law 25. 26. The head of state or ruler must force all the heretics whom he has in custody, provided he does so without killing  them  or  breaking  their  arms  or  legs,  as  actual  robbers  and  murderers  of  souls  and  thieves  of  the  sacraments  of  God  and  Christian  faith,  to  confess  their  errors  and  accuse  other  heretics  whom  they  know,  and  specify  their  motives,  and  those  whom  they  have  seduced,  and  those  who  have  lodged  them  and  defended  them, as thieves and robbers of material goods are made to accuse their accomplices and confess the crimes they have committed.

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/01p/1252-05-15,_SS_Innocentius_IV,_Bulla_'Ad_Extirpanda',_EN.pdf
 

Rubecorks

Re: Torturing terrorists?
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2017, 01:10:13 PM »
Common knowledge:

1. Catholic states routinely tortured people for information
2. The Church commanded them to torture heretics for information

1. If it is common knowledge, please provide proof for this.

I'm not going to waste my time proving to someone playing dumb that Catholic authorities commonly tortured people in the middle ages.

Quote
2. The Church didn't command that. The Church merely approved of the state's authority to deal with heretics as seditious to the state. Heretics were tortured in view of avoiding capital punishment and renouncement, not for information.

Wrong on all counts. The bull Ad Extirpanda positively commanded the state to use torture to gather information from suspected heretics.

Quote
Law 25. 26. The head of state or ruler must force all the heretics whom he has in custody, provided he does so without killing  them  or  breaking  their  arms  or  legs,  as  actual  robbers  and  murderers  of  souls  and  thieves  of  the  sacraments  of  God  and  Christian  faith,  to  confess  their  errors  and  accuse  other  heretics  whom  they  know,  and  specify  their  motives,  and  those  whom  they  have  seduced,  and  those  who  have  lodged  them  and  defended  them, as thieves and robbers of material goods are made to accuse their accomplices and confess the crimes they have committed.

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/01p/1252-05-15,_SS_Innocentius_IV,_Bulla_'Ad_Extirpanda',_EN.pdf

Sure, say you aren't going to waste your time,  then accuse me of being dishonest, and then immediately proceed to waste your time proving it to me! Get with it.

I was unaware of "Ad Extirpanda", and will read it soon.
 

When Antisemites Attack!

Re: Torturing terrorists?
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2017, 01:40:07 PM »
You know that traditionalist medieval golden age/humanist cross-pollinated revisionism has gone too far when people demand proof that torture was common.
 
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Rubecorks

Re: Torturing terrorists?
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2017, 01:42:33 PM »
Quote
Law 25. 26. The head of state or ruler must force all the heretics whom he has in custody, provided he does so without killing  them  or  breaking  their  arms  or  legs,  as  actual  robbers  and  murderers  of  souls  and  thieves  of  the  sacraments  of  God  and  Christian  faith,  to  confess  their  errors  and  accuse  other  heretics  whom  they  know,  and  specify  their  motives,  and  those  whom  they  have  seduced,  and  those  who  have  lodged  them  and  defended  them, as thieves and robbers of material goods are made to accuse their accomplices and confess the crimes they have committed.

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/01p/1252-05-15,_SS_Innocentius_IV,_Bulla_'Ad_Extirpanda',_EN.pdf

Yes, I see what you excerpted is sufficient proof that torture of murderers and thieves for information was approved of by the Church indirectly by this document saying to treat heretics as murderers and thieves already are. This probably covers a great deal of what a terrorist might do, though terrorism doesn't necessarily kill and steal in order to terrorize.

 

Rubecorks

Re: Torturing terrorists?
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2017, 04:40:42 PM »
You know that traditionalist medieval golden age/humanist cross-pollinated revisionism has gone too far when people demand proof that torture was common.

I am not sure what to make of what you say here. Before, you said it was common knowledge, now you are suggesting some revisionism has been going on...which would actually work to make it NOT common knowledge. Perhaps you can clarify this apparent discrepancy.

 

TKGS

Re: Torturing terrorists?
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2017, 07:26:39 PM »
Yes, I see what you excerpted is sufficient proof that torture of murderers and thieves for information was approved of by the Church indirectly by this document saying to treat heretics as murderers and thieves already are.

So...  Does this settle the issue for the membership?
 
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Troubled Teen

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Re: Torturing terrorists?
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2017, 09:40:29 PM »
traditionalist medieval golden age/humanist cross-pollinated revisionism

Do you post on SD? ;D
"Man knoweth not whether he be worthy of love, or hatred." - Ecclesiastes 9:1

"In the present time the directive is to stick to the essentials of Christianity: to flee the world, believe in Christ, do all the good that one can, strive for detachment from created things, avoid false prophets and remember death." - Fr. Leonardo Castellani
 

Rubecorks

Re: Torturing terrorists?
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2017, 05:27:20 AM »
Yes, I see what you excerpted is sufficient proof that torture of murderers and thieves for information was approved of by the Church indirectly by this document saying to treat heretics as murderers and thieves already are.

So...  Does this settle the issue for the membership?

It can't speak for the membership.
 

annamack

Re: Torturing terrorists?
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2017, 06:33:21 AM »


Yes, I see what you excerpted is sufficient proof that torture of murderers and thieves for information was approved of by the Church indirectly by this document saying to treat heretics as murderers and thieves already are. This probably covers a great deal of what a terrorist might do, though terrorism doesn't necessarily kill and steal in order to terrorize.

But I think that we have had sufficient examples of recent islamist actions to contend that they aim each time to kill.