Author Topic: Amoris Laetitia  (Read 666 times)

Troubled Teen

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Re: Amoris Laetitia
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2017, 12:42:24 AM »
By giving the Argentine interpretation of AL official force of law while acknowledging and conspicuously refusing to respond to the accusations of heresy which centered precisely on that interpretation of the document, Francis has left no doubt that the duty of the Cardinals - and failing that, the Roman clergy - is to elect an orthodox successor, if not judged and deposed himself. Whatever jurisdiction he may still enjoy is purely and simply an effect of the Roman clergy dragging their feet and failing to recognize their duty.

The Church has been in great darkness for a long time, but this is a greater darkness yet.

And in the luck of night
In secret places where no other spied
I went without my sight
Without a light to guide
Except the heart that lit me from inside.
"Man knoweth not whether he be worthy of love, or hatred." - Ecclesiastes 9:1

"In the present time the directive is to stick to the essentials of Christianity: to flee the world, believe in Christ, do all the good that one can, strive for detachment from created things, avoid false prophets and remember death." - Fr. Leonardo Castellani
 

2Vermont

Re: Amoris Laetitia
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2017, 04:54:09 AM »
"Anything, but sedevacantism"

(If you are open to sedevacantism and not a rabid anti-sede, then this is not about you)
 

Troubled Teen

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Re: Amoris Laetitia
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2017, 06:32:09 AM »
Is Derksen aware that Pope Zachary I permitted Greek divorce?
"Man knoweth not whether he be worthy of love, or hatred." - Ecclesiastes 9:1

"In the present time the directive is to stick to the essentials of Christianity: to flee the world, believe in Christ, do all the good that one can, strive for detachment from created things, avoid false prophets and remember death." - Fr. Leonardo Castellani
 

TKGS

Re: Amoris Laetitia
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2017, 06:52:59 AM »
Is Derksen aware that Pope Zachary I permitted Greek divorce?

Please provide the evidence of this.  I remember reading (quite sometime ago) a refutation of this claim.  The author provided the actual context and words on which the claim is based and, I think, proved that the claim is actually a calumny.
 

Mithrandylan

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Re: Amoris Laetitia
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2017, 07:39:07 AM »
If it's what I think it is, Zachary (as memory serves anyways) dispensed a marriage owing to affinity. In the earlier Church, even at the time of Henry VIII, it was considered an impediment of affinity to marry the sibling of someone you'd had relationships with.

This was a point of dispute in Henry's marriage to Catherine, and why Pope Julius issued a dispensation for Henry to marry Catherine, since she had been married to his brother Arthur (although everyone, including the virtuous Queen, claim the marriage with Arthur was never consummated).  Ironically, Fr. Sander, a contemporary of Henry's and a dissenters from the marriage and Herny's schism, points out that Henry's attempted marriage to Anne is actually invalid on the exact same grounds that he claims his marriage to Catherine was invalid, given that he (Henry) had relationships with Anne's sister. (Of course Henry's marriage to Anne was invalid on many other grounds as well, not the least of which is the fact that Anne was very likely his daughter).

Anyways, point being that for quite some time the impediment to affinity was much broader than it is today, and I'm pretty sure the claims about Zachary having allowed divorce is owed to the fact that he wrote a letter where he told someone they could put their wife away, since they had had relationships with the sister. Otherwise yes, Troubled Teen, let's see the source.
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Mithrandylan

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Troubled Teen

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Re: Amoris Laetitia
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2017, 08:00:22 AM »


Credit goes to Pacelli for posting the whole article ("The Teaching of the New Testament and the Church Regarding Divorce," Fr. Hugh Pope, The American Catholic Quarterly Review, Vol. XXVIII, 1903, pages 807-814) on his own forum. From reading the excerpt Mith linked to above it does seem as though the letter can be understood in the sense of affirming the nullity of a marriage based on a previous relationship.
"Man knoweth not whether he be worthy of love, or hatred." - Ecclesiastes 9:1

"In the present time the directive is to stick to the essentials of Christianity: to flee the world, believe in Christ, do all the good that one can, strive for detachment from created things, avoid false prophets and remember death." - Fr. Leonardo Castellani
 

Mithrandylan

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Re: Amoris Laetitia
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2017, 08:24:49 AM »
I wonder what Pope's background is. A brief review of some mid 19th-century Anglican literature shows that Anglican authors don't look too closely at Pope Zachary. I found two sources which basically amount to unsourced assertions that "he dug divorce bro".  Which would seem to follow, given the scandalous conception of their own church. The legitimacy of divorce is essential even to the integrity of High Church Anglicans, and I'm sure it was a major part of their formation.

I note that Pope is an English cleric, perhaps a convert from the Oxford movement?  Or perhaps not, but even if born and raised Catholic he'd certainly be exposed to Anglican arguments far more than a cleric in another part of the world. Which perhaps is why he takes the question ,seriously, and with a certain ambiguity. Though in fairness that's only an excerpt, not sure what the tenor of the rest of the work is.
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TKGS

Re: Amoris Laetitia
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2017, 08:35:43 AM »
If it's what I think it is, Zachary (as memory serves anyways) dispensed a marriage owing to affinity. In the earlier Church, even at the time of Henry VIII, it was considered an impediment of affinity to marry the sibling of someone you'd had relationships with.

You have an excellent memory.  I could only remember that I had read a refutation of the claim (perhaps on Bellarmine Forum, but it may have been elsewhere) but, for the life of me, I couldn't remember any of the details.  As soon as I read your post I recalled that this was pretty much the gist of the refutation.

So many people today post these very short snippets (tweet size), anti-Catholic claims that were propagated to "prove" that the Church is very, very fallible and has changed her magisterial teachings at times.  It's more troubling that people who claim to be traditional Catholics seemingly have no problem repeating them.  Troubled Teen, to his credit, after posting the source (giving credit to the arch-Modernist Pacelli for uncovering proof of the falsity of the Catholic Church's unchangeable doctrines) does note that it could be interpreted in an orthodox* sense.  On the other hand, Modernists will think within themselves that, although a magisterial document can be interpreted according to traditional Catholic doctrine, it can also be interpreted in a manner that "progresses" doctrine according to the current needs of the faithful.

I will not be surprised when, after the Conciliar sect authorizes the ordination of priestesses, certain "traditional Catholics" will start to regurgitate the mythical stories of "Pope Joan".


* Note:  This is how the word "orthodox" is used in English to refer to its meaning as an adjective rather than a proper noun.  The term is actually explaining the noun it precedes indicating that the "sense" of the doctrine is according to the traditional norms and not referring to the schismatic Orthodox.
 

Mithrandylan

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Re: Amoris Laetitia
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2017, 08:46:27 AM »
I wonder what Pope's background is. A brief review of some mid 19th-century Anglican literature shows that Anglican authors don't look too closely at Pope Zachary. I found two sources which basically amount to unsourced assertions that "he dug divorce bro".  Which would seem to follow, given the scandalous conception of their own church. The legitimacy of divorce is essential even to the integrity of High Church Anglicans, and I'm sure it was a major part of their formation.

I note that Pope is an English cleric, perhaps a convert from the Oxford movement?  Or perhaps not, but even if born and raised Catholic he'd certainly be exposed to Anglican arguments far more than a cleric in another part of the world. Which perhaps is why he takes the question ,seriously, and with a certain ambiguity. Though in fairness that's only an excerpt, not sure what the tenor of the rest of the work is.

Skimming the article, Pope's treatment is fairly comprehensive and he is not sympathetic to devious opinions about divorce, though I am surprised to discover the variety of opinions he discusses.
I wear it for a memorable honor,
For I am Welsh, you know, good countryman.
 
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