Author Topic: Whole thread deleted, why?  (Read 317 times)

Rubecorks

Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2017, 06:29:21 PM »
Users are allowed to delete their own posts.

Unfortunately, that means that if they're the OP of a post they've deleted, then the whole thread follows suit.

And after reviewing the logs, that is what has happened.  I'm going to try to restore from a backup.  Also, I've adjusted user permissions slightly so we shouldn't see this happen again.

Please restore if possible, you have my permission to keep it up. I think it would be important for future users to see the discussion, however nasty it turned.

I did not see anything in my user permissions to allow me to restore it. Too bad this site can't require password as a second confirmation before removing an entire thread.  I learned it was easier to delete 9 pages of argued thread than it has been to simply delete a user's account.


Vinny, yes it was "nasty" as you say, but because you professed that the Eastern rite had its own theology and was separate in governance by the pope. Yes, that is nasty....and definitively schismatic.

 

TKGS

Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2017, 07:00:10 PM »
I am new to this site and was trying to delete my account...

It's a new forum and we are all new to the site.  Many of us who charter members get very concerned when things like this happen because of an experience many of us had on another, now defunct, forum.

I've seen members on other forums talk about deleting their accounts as well.  I've never understood that.  When forum members decides they're done with a forum, why do frequently want to delete their accounts?  Why don't they just simply stop posting and visiting the forum?  I've been a member of about seven forums.  I'm currently active on two forums.  I can sign on to a third forum if I ever chose to do so though I will not because the forum owner there bacame a raving Conciliarist and will ban any member who even sounds like he might be thinking about sedevacantism.  He started out as a completely loyal SSPX follower but went completely Conciliar when Bishop Williamson was expelled.  All of the other forums I've been a member of have either closed or gone dark.

I want to apologize to Mith for assuming that he was the culprit in this.  But I had never even contemplated an ability on the part of forum members to delete posts and topics and figured that only the ability to take this action would be a moderator.

In any event, Rukecorks is absolutely correct in this matter.  Schism, like heresy, is a nasty thing.  Robert Bolt, in A Man for All Seasons, puts it very well when he put the words on St. Thomas More's lips:
Quote
More: Roper, the answer is no... and will be no as long as you're a heretic.

Roper: Now, that's a word I don't like, Sir Thomas!

More: It's not a likable word or a likable thing.


 
The following users thanked this post: annamack

Vinny Zee

Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2017, 07:23:13 PM »
[/quote}
Vinny, yes it was "nasty" as you say, but because you professed that the Eastern rite had its own theology and was separate in governance by the pope. Yes, that is nasty....and definitively schismatic.
[/quote]

Now who's lying against who?

The Eastern Rite cannot have any theology that is separate of what Rome declared to be the proper orthodoxy of the Catholic faith. Those that think otherwise can go read ALLATAE SUNT (On the observance of Oriental Rites) by Pope Benedict XIV, he laid it all out there.

When the Eastern Rite speaks of its own theology, this refers to what I quoted numerous times to you that the Popes, in their Jurisdiction, preserved and made it nothing short of a command the East was to preserve their rites, practices, liturgies, etc. Naturally there will be Eastern Theology attached to those, but there is nothing in the Eastern Theology contrary to what Rome has declared orthodox for the faith. This is what it means to be in communion with Rome! If you don't know (or don't like) the fact that the differences in Eastern and Western Rites means differences in theology while still being in communion, then this is why there were Popes to make these decisions. You have just chosen to neither believe it or accept it.

I quoted to you that even after the election of a Patriarch, which occurs only among the Eastern Bishops, the Patriarch must request communion from the Pope.  So in governance, the Eastern Bishops alone elect the Patriarch, he was given governance of his Church by the Pope in that the Popes never did away with the Patriarchate or all that consists in the Patriarchate, and he continues to over see his Sui Iuris Church. I know I made it clear, more than once, nothing that occurred among the Eastern Church escapes the notice of Rome.

We are Catholic, because Pope Clement, Pope Leo XIII, Pope Benedict XIV and a host of other Popes have said we are Catholic, make up the Catholic Church and determined what that looks like and functions. You, and you alone, declared us Eastern Schismatics and several hundred years after Rome said otherwise. This also is the problem of you having no Pope. You can go back and do the very thing to the East the Popes were adamant should no longer happen because you have no authority.

I sure hope they are able to restore the thread. People can judge for themselves. 
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 08:21:17 PM by Vinny Zee »
 
The following users thanked this post: Troubled Teen

Rubecorks

Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2017, 08:18:16 PM »
I don't have the time to try to restore it now, and I can't make any promises that I'll be able to. 

Sorry folks.

Fair enough, Mith. But are you going to allow continuance of promotion of schismatic ideology here?

 

Vinny Zee

Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2017, 08:27:32 PM »
I don't have the time to try to restore it now, and I can't make any promises that I'll be able to. 

Sorry folks.

Restoring Deleted Posts and Topics
Deleted posts and topics can only be restored if a recycle board has been created. Moderators should ask their forum administrator whether a recycle bin has been enabled.
 

Rubecorks

Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2017, 08:32:01 PM »
I don't have the time to try to restore it now, and I can't make any promises that I'll be able to. 

Sorry folks.

Fair enough, Mith. But are you going to allow continuance of promotion of schismatic ideology here?

Bump
 

Troubled Teen

  • TTF Novice
  • Posts: 88
  • Thanked: 46 times
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm the guy who sucks (plus I got depression)
Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2017, 08:34:12 PM »
Fair enough, Mith. But are you going to allow continuance of promotion of schismatic ideology here?

Are you ever going to admit to being wrong about something?
"Man knoweth not whether he be worthy of love, or hatred." - Ecclesiastes 9:1

"In the present time the directive is to stick to the essentials of Christianity: to flee the world, believe in Christ, do all the good that one can, strive for detachment from created things, avoid false prophets and remember death." - Fr. Leonardo Castellani
 

Rubecorks

Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2017, 08:38:04 PM »
Fair enough, Mith. But are you going to allow continuance of promotion of schismatic ideology here?

Are you ever going to admit to being wrong about something?

Ah, so now we know!  You are one of the anti-sede schismatics!
 

TKGS

Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2017, 09:17:01 PM »
Fair enough, Mith. But are you going to allow continuance of promotion of schismatic ideology here?

Are you ever going to admit to being wrong about something?

While Rubecorks has shown that he is fallible, this is not one of those issues that he is wrong.  Though I wasn't able to read the last three pages of the topic before it disappeared, there was plenty of schism and heresy presented as the beliefs of certain posters. 

While the Forum Rules only specify one particular heresy that is not tolerated on the forum, anyone who holds any heresy or denies the universal jurisdiction of the pope (schism) is not Catholic, by the very definition of the Church from the Baltimore Catechism:

Quote
The Church is the congregation of all those who profess the faith of Christ, partake of the same Sacraments, and are governed by their lawful pastors under one visible Head.

ETA:  I do, of course, realize that sometimes people who desire to be Catholic may mistakenly hold these beliefs.  There is a major difference, though, when one obfuscates about beliefs, evangelizes those beliefs, and/or presents as doctrine those beliefs and the individual who, with Catholic docility, is open to True Doctrine even while taking time to fully comprehend and accept.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 09:42:31 PM by TKGS »
 

Vinny Zee

Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2017, 09:38:56 PM »


While Rubecorks has shown that he is fallible, this is not one of those issues that he is wrong.  Though I wasn't able to read the last three pages of the topic before it disappeared, there was plenty of schism and heresy presented as the beliefs of certain posters. 

While the Forum Rules only specify one particular heresy that is not tolerated on the forum, anyone who holds any heresy or denies the universal jurisdiction of the pope (schism) is not Catholic, by the very definition of the Church from the Baltimore Catechism:

Quote
The Church is the congregation of all those who profess the faith of Christ, partake of the same Sacraments, and are governed by their lawful pastors under one visible Head.
[/quote]

While I regret you were not able to read the last three pages, I think it was there you would have seen clearer answers once I understood exactly what was being asked. There was some misunderstanding early on and I had to show at one point the seemingly same question was asked 7 different ways, so it was not always easy to follow what was being asked after I thought I had answered the previous one. However, I made it clear that I believed in the universal jurisdiction of the pope. There was even a point when Rubecorks gave two options for an answer he wanted, labels #1 and #2. Before I answered, I put clearly, #1, which was his wording on the universal jurisdiction of the Pope of Rome. It didn't matter, he not only still called me schismatic, but called for my ban from this website.

I also regret, no matter what an Eastern Rite Catholic says, there are some who never accepted the East's return to the Church (even, apparently no matter what the Popes have said on the matter too.) There are some in the west who will never see it as being the same family, but that 23 parts of the family sit under the 1 or else you are preaching and teaching schism otherwise.

I think this was the final point of contention. The mere point of the Popes through the last 400 years has been for the East to retain their practices, tradition, theology or else this would otherwise result in the East simply being made Latin if it was to all be one like the West. It was Benedict XIV, in July of 1755, who said this, "We also wanted to make clear to all the good will which the Apostolic See feels for Oriental Catholics in commanding them to observe fully their ancient rites which are not at variance with the Catholic religion or with propriety. The Church does not require schismatics to abandon their rites when they return to Catholic unity, but only that they forswear and detest heresy. Its great desire is for the preservation, not the destruction, of different peoples-in short, that all may be Catholic rather than all become Latin."

Therefore, this keeps with the command of the Baltimore Catechism, "The Church is the congregation of all those who profess the faith of Christ, partake of the same Sacraments, and are governed by their lawful pastors under one visible Head." Our lawful pastors are those retained in the East under the direction and command of the Popes. I repeated over and over again, the East cannot profess anything contrary to what the West held as the Catholic faith. I told Rubecorks, we could not be monophysites, or anything like that and be Catholic.

So every time I said the Popes, while retaining the supremacy of jurisdiction, used this to preserve the Eastern Rite and Tradition, I was called a schismatic. When I said what Benedict XIV said, "Its great desire is for the preservation, not the destruction, of different peoples-in short, that all may be Catholic rather than all become Latin." I was called a schismatic. Again, I regret you were not able to finish reading the thread, it is my hope it can be restored. When it is, I will depart as was requested. But I will go knowing I did not profess schism or heresy, but the Catholic Faith.
 
The following users thanked this post: Troubled Teen