Author Topic: Whole thread deleted, why?  (Read 302 times)

TKGS

Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2017, 09:56:06 PM »
I actually do not understand why it is so difficult for you to plainly state what it is you believe.  On more than one occasion in the earlier pages of the topic you specifically denied that the pope had jurisdiction over the Eastern Churches and you objected to the term, "subject to".  You keep bringing up traditions and practices and condemn the idea that the Eastern Churches should be Latinized.

But no one on this forum, including Rubecorks, never suggested that the Eastern Churches should be Latinized nor is that germane to the issue of universal jurisdiction.  I believe it is historically accurate to say that some Catholics have insisted that the Eastern Churches have to become more Latin in their Liturgy in order to be united to Rome and, as far as I could tell, no one on the forum supported that position and, in fact, fully acknowledged the various papal pronouncements that, not only is there no requirement for the Eastern Churches to modify their Liturgies to be more Latinized but that this should not happen as there are good reasons for the multiplicity of rites in the Church.

This particular issue is not really relevant.  As for the precise questions that were asked that I didn't see a direct answer to, I will leave those to Rubecorks or see if we get the topic restored and read what was said. 

Your last paragraph really is the first time I've read you saying that the popes hold supreme jurisdiction over the Eastern Churches.  How, specifically, they used that supreme jurisdiction really isn't the point.  However, in a post somewhere in the first few pages, you specifically said that the pope does not have jurisdiction over the Eastern Churches and I reported the post to the moderators.  Perhaps it was a typo?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 10:01:32 PM by TKGS »
 

Vinny Zee

Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2017, 10:27:16 PM »

Your last paragraph really is the first time I've read you saying that the popes hold supreme jurisdiction over the Eastern Churches.  How, specifically, they used that supreme jurisdiction really isn't the point.  However, in a post somewhere in the first few pages, you specifically said that the pope does not have jurisdiction over the Eastern Churches and I reported the post to the moderators.  Perhaps it was a typo?

At some point later on I told Rubecorks that I misunderstood what he was asking about supreme jurisdiction, because it seemed initially when he proposed the question I felt it was worded in a way of the West/Pope defining our rites and practices vs. them preserving the rites and practices we already had. Therefore, initially, how I interpreted his question is what turned the discussion into a back and forth, particularly about Latinization. I felt his initial question warranted a reply about what the Popes said regarding retention of the East's rights, practices, theology, structure, etc, vs. Latinization of the East. I was discussing the Popes being adamant that the East retain the practices already established and he felt I wasn't answering the question of the Pope's supreme/universal jurisdiction. There was a point too, later on, when he used the term, subjugate, and we had a discussion on that. He retracted the use of that word as well and eventually I was able to see what he wanted to know.

I will say I agree also how Popes chose to use their supreme jurisdiction is not the issue either. I just made note of it that they used the jurisdiction to preserve the East. The point I am making here, is that if the Pope (in his universal jurisdiction that he has) had told the Ruthenians at the Union of Brest they had to Latinize to come back, they may have never come back. This was the only reason I brought this up regarding the pope using his supreme jurisdiction to preserve the East, because I think it is an important point regarding reuniting the West and East at various points were Eastern Churches came back.

Anyway, I didn't think my conversation with Rubecorks was a jury trial.  The entire back and forth issue of where he only wanted me to give a "yes" or "no" answer I don't think was proper for a forum setting.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 09:35:26 AM by Vinny Zee »
 

Mithrandylan

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Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2017, 09:24:09 AM »
I don't have the time to try to restore it now, and I can't make any promises that I'll be able to. 

Sorry folks.

Fair enough, Mith. But are you going to allow continuance of promotion of schismatic ideology here?

Bump

I read and replied to the thread in question.  I don't think Vinny was promoting that at all, although I do think that he didn't use the right terms, and the terms he used were so wrong so as to give the impression of such a promotion.  But when you get to the clarifications, he did/does not deny the primacy of papal jurisdiction.  What he was talking about was more the degree of direct intervention and maintenance of Catholic life in the east, and it's more than fair to point out that the pope's de facto day-to-day relationship with the Eastern Churches is different from that of the Western Church in that regard.

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Rubecorks

Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2017, 09:34:48 AM »
I don't have the time to try to restore it now, and I can't make any promises that I'll be able to. 

Sorry folks.

Fair enough, Mith. But are you going to allow continuance of promotion of schismatic ideology here?

Bump

I read and replied to the thread in question.  I don't think Vinny was promoting that at all, although I do think that he didn't use the right terms, and the terms he used were so wrong so as to give the impression of such a promotion.  But when you get to the clarifications, he did/does not deny the primacy of papal jurisdiction.  What he was talking about was more the degree of direct intervention and maintenance of Catholic life in the east, and it's more than fair to point out that the pope's de facto day-to-day relationship with the Eastern Churches is different from that of the Western Church in that regard.

He is very evasive when trying to get clarification from him. However, what was solidly established to-date was that he believes the Eastern Catholics were autonomous in governing and had their own theology.  This describes what the Eastern schismatics historically believe.


 

Mithrandylan

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Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2017, 09:48:27 AM »
I don't have the time to try to restore it now, and I can't make any promises that I'll be able to. 

Sorry folks.

Fair enough, Mith. But are you going to allow continuance of promotion of schismatic ideology here?

Bump

I read and replied to the thread in question.  I don't think Vinny was promoting that at all, although I do think that he didn't use the right terms, and the terms he used were so wrong so as to give the impression of such a promotion.  But when you get to the clarifications, he did/does not deny the primacy of papal jurisdiction.  What he was talking about was more the degree of direct intervention and maintenance of Catholic life in the east, and it's more than fair to point out that the pope's de facto day-to-day relationship with the Eastern Churches is different from that of the Western Church in that regard.

He is very evasive when trying to get clarification from him. However, what was solidly established to-date was that he believes the Eastern Catholics were autonomous in governing

Which isn't an objectionable view, given that one limits the autonomy.  Relative to the western Churches, they are quite autonomous.  As someone who often appeals to older, historical situations in the Church on matters of government and jurisdiction, I'm sure you can appreciate that the degree of autonomy enjoyed by certain geographies and also particular churches has been a fluctuating matter of degree for millennia.  Not just in the east, either.  The Church in the British Isles enjoyed a similar sort of culturo-religious tradition, at least in fact, until Whitby.

Quote
and had their own theology. 

Well, they do.  It's patently more mystical, and broadly non-scholastic.  If you were to ask me I would say that it is an inferior theology, but Eastern doctors have continued in a more Patristic tradition of doctrinal exposition than Western doctors.  Which isn't to say the Western doctors are at odds with the fathers, but they've contributed to the sacred sciences by increased precision and unique systemism, whereas the eastern theologians have not.

Quote
This describes what the Eastern schismatics historically believe.

If someone said these things I would not think, by them alone, that they are schismatic.  The Eastern Schismatics reject papal jurisdiction out of hand and altogether, it's clear that Vinny does not, and that his "denial" of papal jurisdiction (i.e., of the primacy of Peter's jurisdiction) is not at all what the schismatics believe. 
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Troubled Teen

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Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2017, 09:56:33 AM »
Ah, so now we know!  You are one of the anti-sede schismatics!



You guys ran the last iteration of TTF into the ground and now you're doing the same thing here.
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Mithrandylan

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Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2017, 10:00:10 AM »
I don't have the time to try to restore it now, and I can't make any promises that I'll be able to. 

Sorry folks.

Restoring Deleted Posts and Topics
Deleted posts and topics can only be restored if a recycle board has been created. Moderators should ask their forum administrator whether a recycle bin has been enabled.

Unfortunately, we did not have a recycle board (we do now).

The idea behind allowing members to delete their own posts was to give members some added freedom.  People sometimes say things they regret.  I didn't realize that this meant that if a user deleted a post that was an OP that the entire thread would get deleted.

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Mithrandylan

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Re: Whole thread deleted, why?
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2017, 10:04:22 AM »
Ah, so now we know!  You are one of the anti-sede schismatics!



You guys ran the last iteration of TTF into the ground and now you're doing the same thing here.

Nobody will run anything into the ground (the first TTF was a pile of crap due to the software limitations).  Too much time and money has been poured into this thing to let that happen. 

I'll go ahead and lock this thread since the OP's question was answered.  It doesn't look like I'm going to be able to restore the thread, at least not without losing everything that came after it, so if I can, be surprised.  Feel free to make a new thread and re-hash what happened in the initial "Where is the Catholic Church" thread started by Vinny.
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