Author Topic: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?  (Read 680 times)

true catholic

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Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« on: January 27, 2018, 09:37:38 AM »
I ask the question with much trepidation?  I myself, know the answer but I fear that I may be disappointed by some?

Pope Pius IX I Vatican Council, Session 4 : 18 July 1870

First dogmatic constitution on the Church of Christ

Chapter 4.
On the infallible teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff

1. That apostolic primacy which the Roman Pontiff possesses as successor of Peter, the prince of the apostles, includes also the supreme power of teaching. This Holy See has always maintained this, the constant custom of the Church demonstrates it, and the ecumenical councils, particularly those in which East and West met in the union of faith and charity, have declared it.

The Oath Against Modernism Pope Pius X - 1910

… Thirdly, I believe with equally firm faith that the Church, the guardian and teacher of the revealed word, was personally instituted by the real and historical Christ when he lived among us, and that the Church was built upon Peter, the prince of the apostolic hierarchy, and his successors for the duration of time. Fourthly, I sincerely hold that the doctrine of faith was handed down to us from the apostles through the orthodox Fathers in exactly the same meaning and always in the same purport. Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical’ misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously. I also condemn every error according to which, in place of the divine deposit which has been given to the spouse of Christ to be carefully guarded by her, there is put a philosophical figment or product of a human conscience that has gradually been developed by human effort and will continue to develop indefinitely. …

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not:

3 Kings 9:5 I will establish the throne of thy kingdom over Israel for ever, as I promised David thy father, saying: There shall not fail a man of thy race upon the throne of Israel. 
 

Rubecorks

Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2018, 09:51:36 AM »
I ask the question with much trepidation?  I myself, know the answer but I fear that I may be disappointed by some?

Pope Pius IX I Vatican Council, Session 4 : 18 July 1870

First dogmatic constitution on the Church of Christ

Chapter 4.
On the infallible teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff

1. That apostolic primacy which the Roman Pontiff possesses as successor of Peter, the prince of the apostles, includes also the supreme power of teaching. This Holy See has always maintained this, the constant custom of the Church demonstrates it, and the ecumenical councils, particularly those in which East and West met in the union of faith and charity, have declared it.

The Oath Against Modernism Pope Pius X - 1910

… Thirdly, I believe with equally firm faith that the Church, the guardian and teacher of the revealed word, was personally instituted by the real and historical Christ when he lived among us, and that the Church was built upon Peter, the prince of the apostolic hierarchy, and his successors for the duration of time. Fourthly, I sincerely hold that the doctrine of faith was handed down to us from the apostles through the orthodox Fathers in exactly the same meaning and always in the same purport. Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical’ misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously. I also condemn every error according to which, in place of the divine deposit which has been given to the spouse of Christ to be carefully guarded by her, there is put a philosophical figment or product of a human conscience that has gradually been developed by human effort and will continue to develop indefinitely. …

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not:

3 Kings 9:5 I will establish the throne of thy kingdom over Israel for ever, as I promised David thy father, saying: There shall not fail a man of thy race upon the throne of Israel. 

Okay, so you quoted Catholic quotes on a Catholic forum, and everyone will accept those quotes.

Why don't you tell us what problem you perceive that is related to this subject, and then it will be easier for people to respond as to whether it is a problem or not.

 
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true catholic

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Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2018, 10:13:36 AM »
Rubecorks quote. "Okay, so you quoted Catholic quotes on a Catholic forum, and everyone will accept those quotes. Why don't you tell us what problem you perceive that is related to this subject, and then it will be easier for people to respond as to whether it is a problem or not."

It is always best to lay the foundation of truth in the beginning.  Many times with those who call themselves catholic, use quotes of saints, in an attempt to further define or redefine what true Popes have said in past councils.  Saints can only parrot what Popes have dogmatically said.  Many people misunderstand that a saint is made a saint because of a virtuous and holy life.  Saints can be wrong on matters of faith.  Saints are not infallible.  This is my point and I wanted to see what the response was. 

Is there anything in the thread that is erroneous?
 

Rubecorks

Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2018, 10:35:51 AM »
Rubecorks quote. "Okay, so you quoted Catholic quotes on a Catholic forum, and everyone will accept those quotes. Why don't you tell us what problem you perceive that is related to this subject, and then it will be easier for people to respond as to whether it is a problem or not."

It is always best to lay the foundation of truth in the beginning.  Many times with those who call themselves catholic, use quotes of saints, in an attempt to further define or redefine what true Popes have said in past councils.  Saints can only parrot what Popes have dogmatically said.  Many people misunderstand that a saint is made a saint because of a virtuous and holy life.  Saints can be wrong on matters of faith.  Saints are not infallible.  This is my point and I wanted to see what the response was. 

Is there anything in the thread that is erroneous?

Of course a Saint could be wrong. What is your purpose of emphasizing this that is important for us to know in this time of apostasy?





 
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Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2018, 10:41:04 AM »
I am wondering whether this conversation is heading towards:  Baptism of Desire.
"Anything, but sedevacantism"

(If you are open to sedevacantism and not a rabid anti-sede, then this is not about you)
 
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true catholic

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Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2018, 11:01:33 AM »
Rubecorks quote. "Okay, so you quoted Catholic quotes on a Catholic forum, and everyone will accept those quotes. Why don't you tell us what problem you perceive that is related to this subject, and then it will be easier for people to respond as to whether it is a problem or not."

It is always best to lay the foundation of truth in the beginning.  Many times with those who call themselves catholic, use quotes of saints, in an attempt to further define or redefine what true Popes have said in past councils.  Saints can only parrot what Popes have dogmatically said.  Many people misunderstand that a saint is made a saint because of a virtuous and holy life.  Saints can be wrong on matters of faith.  Saints are not infallible.  This is my point and I wanted to see what the response was. 

Is there anything in the thread that is erroneous?

Of course a Saint could be wrong. What is your purpose of emphasizing this that is important for us to know in this time of apostasy?

This is my point, and as you have said we have been living through the world wide apostasy from God.  Why?  It is precisely because of the abuses against the Catholic faith itself.  In charity, this is what just about everyone does not understand, and I wish they would.

For instance, how can anyone who says that they are a catholic, a member of the Catholic church, presumably holding to every consistent truth of the Catholic church and at the same time, they say that a man can be saved in a false religion, which all false religions are of the devil.

Psalms 95:5 For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils: but the Lord made the heavens.

1 Corinthians 10:20 But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers with devils.

Other than a man's personal ideas, which is desolate, how is that possible to even believe such a thing?
 

Rubecorks

Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2018, 11:21:19 AM »
Rubecorks quote. "Okay, so you quoted Catholic quotes on a Catholic forum, and everyone will accept those quotes. Why don't you tell us what problem you perceive that is related to this subject, and then it will be easier for people to respond as to whether it is a problem or not."

It is always best to lay the foundation of truth in the beginning.  Many times with those who call themselves catholic, use quotes of saints, in an attempt to further define or redefine what true Popes have said in past councils.  Saints can only parrot what Popes have dogmatically said.  Many people misunderstand that a saint is made a saint because of a virtuous and holy life.  Saints can be wrong on matters of faith.  Saints are not infallible.  This is my point and I wanted to see what the response was. 

Is there anything in the thread that is erroneous?

Of course a Saint could be wrong. What is your purpose of emphasizing this that is important for us to know in this time of apostasy?

This is my point, and as you have said we have been living through the world wide apostasy from God.  Why?  It is precisely because of the abuses against the Catholic faith itself.  In charity, this is what just about everyone does not understand, and I wish they would.

For instance, how can anyone who says that they are a catholic, a member of the Catholic church, presumably holding to every consistent truth of the Catholic church and at the same time, they say that a man can be saved in a false religion, which all false religions are of the devil.

Psalms 95:5 For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils: but the Lord made the heavens.

1 Corinthians 10:20 But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers with devils.

Other than a man's personal ideas, which is desolate, how is that possible to even believe such a thing?

And do you know that the doctrine of baptism of desire is not part of this ecumenical apostasy, but a truth of the Catholic faith?


 
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true catholic

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Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2018, 12:26:46 PM »
Rubecorks quote. "Okay, so you quoted Catholic quotes on a Catholic forum, and everyone will accept those quotes. Why don't you tell us what problem you perceive that is related to this subject, and then it will be easier for people to respond as to whether it is a problem or not."

It is always best to lay the foundation of truth in the beginning.  Many times with those who call themselves catholic, use quotes of saints, in an attempt to further define or redefine what true Popes have said in past councils.  Saints can only parrot what Popes have dogmatically said.  Many people misunderstand that a saint is made a saint because of a virtuous and holy life.  Saints can be wrong on matters of faith.  Saints are not infallible.  This is my point and I wanted to see what the response was. 

Is there anything in the thread that is erroneous?

Of course a Saint could be wrong. What is your purpose of emphasizing this that is important for us to know in this time of apostasy?

This is my point, and as you have said we have been living through the world wide apostasy from God.  Why?  It is precisely because of the abuses against the Catholic faith itself.  In charity, this is what just about everyone does not understand, and I wish they would.

For instance, how can anyone who says that they are a catholic, a member of the Catholic church, presumably holding to every consistent truth of the Catholic church and at the same time, they say that a man can be saved in a false religion, which all false religions are of the devil.

Psalms 95:5 For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils: but the Lord made the heavens.

1 Corinthians 10:20 But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers with devils.

Other than a man's personal ideas, which is desolate, how is that possible to even believe such a thing?

And do you know that the doctrine of baptism of desire is not part of this ecumenical apostasy, but a truth of the Catholic faith?

In whole, can you show me, where this is stated?
 

Rubecorks

Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2018, 03:16:46 PM »
Rubecorks quote. "Okay, so you quoted Catholic quotes on a Catholic forum, and everyone will accept those quotes. Why don't you tell us what problem you perceive that is related to this subject, and then it will be easier for people to respond as to whether it is a problem or not."

It is always best to lay the foundation of truth in the beginning.  Many times with those who call themselves catholic, use quotes of saints, in an attempt to further define or redefine what true Popes have said in past councils.  Saints can only parrot what Popes have dogmatically said.  Many people misunderstand that a saint is made a saint because of a virtuous and holy life.  Saints can be wrong on matters of faith.  Saints are not infallible.  This is my point and I wanted to see what the response was. 

Is there anything in the thread that is erroneous?

Of course a Saint could be wrong. What is your purpose of emphasizing this that is important for us to know in this time of apostasy?

This is my point, and as you have said we have been living through the world wide apostasy from God.  Why?  It is precisely because of the abuses against the Catholic faith itself.  In charity, this is what just about everyone does not understand, and I wish they would.

For instance, how can anyone who says that they are a catholic, a member of the Catholic church, presumably holding to every consistent truth of the Catholic church and at the same time, they say that a man can be saved in a false religion, which all false religions are of the devil.

Psalms 95:5 For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils: but the Lord made the heavens.

1 Corinthians 10:20 But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers with devils.

Other than a man's personal ideas, which is desolate, how is that possible to even believe such a thing?

And do you know that the doctrine of baptism of desire is not part of this ecumenical apostasy, but a truth of the Catholic faith?

In whole, can you show me, where this is stated?

It's covered by the infallibility of the Church (not papal infallibility). It has been included in official catechisms which are infallible thereby. The first known action against its denial was the censuring and excommunication of Fr. Leonard Feeney for his teaching against Catholic doctrine.



 
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true catholic

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Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2018, 05:07:43 PM »
Rubecork quote.  "It's covered by the infallibility of the Church (not papal infallibility). It has been included in official catechisms which are infallible thereby. The first known action against its denial was the censuring and excommunication of Fr. Leonard Feeney for his teaching against Catholic doctrine."

Rubecork, there is no such thing as the infallibility of the church.  Only Popes, speaking from the Chair of St. Peter, teaching universally on faith and morals, have infallibility.  And this is precisely why the world is in the condition that it is in.  Because of abuse of the Catholic faith i.e. being turned into the doctrines of men.

Regarding the farce with Father Feeney, Pope Pius XII did not sign the document [protocol 122/49] and it was not even published officially.  It had no force or authority.  It was written by two cardinals, one of them was Ottaviani.

Later, Cardinal Pizzardo, on Oct. 25, 1952, summoned Father Feeney to Rome.  Father Feeney acting according to Canon Law, asked what were the charges and accusations that he was to answer?  There was total silence to this question.  And because Father Feeney did not go to Rome, this is why he was excommunicated.  Which again was bogus.

Not everything that is in catechisms is infallible.  In fact, the Trent catechism was finished and published long after the close of the council.

Can you please provide dogma for baptism of desire, Rubecork?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 05:30:10 PM by true catholic »