Author Topic: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?  (Read 688 times)

true catholic

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Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2018, 05:26:17 PM »
Rubecorks quote. "Okay, so you quoted Catholic quotes on a Catholic forum, and everyone will accept those quotes. Why don't you tell us what problem you perceive that is related to this subject, and then it will be easier for people to respond as to whether it is a problem or not."

It is always best to lay the foundation of truth in the beginning.  Many times with those who call themselves catholic, use quotes of saints, in an attempt to further define or redefine what true Popes have said in past councils.  Saints can only parrot what Popes have dogmatically said.  Many people misunderstand that a saint is made a saint because of a virtuous and holy life.  Saints can be wrong on matters of faith.  Saints are not infallible.  This is my point and I wanted to see what the response was. 

Is there anything in the thread that is erroneous?

Of course a Saint could be wrong. What is your purpose of emphasizing this that is important for us to know in this time of apostasy?

This is my point, and as you have said we have been living through the world wide apostasy from God.  Why?  It is precisely because of the abuses against the Catholic faith itself.  In charity, this is what just about everyone does not understand, and I wish they would.

For instance, how can anyone who says that they are a catholic, a member of the Catholic church, presumably holding to every consistent truth of the Catholic church and at the same time, they say that a man can be saved in a false religion, which all false religions are of the devil.

Psalms 95:5 For all the gods of the Gentiles are devils: but the Lord made the heavens.

1 Corinthians 10:20 But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers with devils.

Other than a man's personal ideas, which is desolate, how is that possible to even believe such a thing?

And do you know that the doctrine of baptism of desire is not part of this ecumenical apostasy, but a truth of the Catholic faith?

In whole, can you show me, where this is stated?

It's covered by the infallibility of the Church (not papal infallibility). It has been included in official catechisms which are infallible thereby. The first known action against its denial was the censuring and excommunication of Fr. Leonard Feeney for his teaching against Catholic doctrine.

I wanted to point something out to you rubecork and this is why I laid the foundation for which you agreed with regarding the thread.  Here is your quote in agreement.

"Okay, so you quoted Catholic quotes on a Catholic forum, and everyone will accept those quotes."

If you except the teaching, then thereafter, you cannot say that the church has infallibility.  I hope that you will provide the dogma for baptism of desire?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 05:28:16 PM by true catholic »
 

Rubecorks

Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2018, 06:06:11 PM »
Rubecork quote.  "It's covered by the infallibility of the Church (not papal infallibility). It has been included in official catechisms which are infallible thereby. The first known action against its denial was the censuring and excommunication of Fr. Leonard Feeney for his teaching against Catholic doctrine."

Rubecork, there is no such thing as the infallibility of the church.  Only Popes, speaking from the Chair of St. Peter, teaching universally on faith and morals, have infallibility.  And this is precisely why the world is in the condition that it is in.  Because of abuse of the Catholic faith i.e. being turned into the doctrines of men.

Regarding the farce with Father Feeney, Pope Pius XII did not sign the document [protocol 122/49] and it was not even published officially.  It had no force or authority.  It was written by two cardinals, one of them was Ottaviani.

Later, Cardinal Pizzardo, on Oct. 25, 1952, summoned Father Feeney to Rome.  Father Feeney acting according to Canon Law, asked what were the charges and accusations that he was to answer?  There was total silence to this question.  And because Father Feeney did not go to Rome, this is why he was excommunicated.  Which again was bogus.

Not everything that is in catechisms is infallible.  In fact, the Trent catechism was finished and published long after the close of the council.

Can you please provide dogma for baptism of desire, Rubecork?

Typical Feeneyite mistakenly thinking that the only infallibility is in the very rare solemn instances of ex cathedra papal definition, and everything else could be harmful to faith and morals. Go look up the "Ordinary & Universal Magisterium".  The early Church existed for generations before a solemn papal definition, but these members of the Church were protected by the infallibility of the Church.


 
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2Vermont

Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2018, 06:39:02 PM »
True Catholic, have you read the Forums Rules?  If not, you probably should do so.
"Anything, but sedevacantism"

(If you are open to sedevacantism and not a rabid anti-sede, then this is not about you)
 
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true catholic

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Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2018, 07:51:50 PM »
True Catholic, have you read the Forums Rules?  If not, you probably should do so.

2vermont, if you go back to your comment and Rubecork, you guys brought up baptism of desire, not I!  And I am still waiting for the dogma of baptism of desire?  Even the Council of Trent does not teach baptism of desire, faith alone.  And by the way, declared dogma is not very rare, very dishonest on your part.  And since you guys brought up baptism of desire first, Pope St. Siricius in the year 385 A.D. condemned the idea of baptism of desire and threaten to cut off any priest who adhered to the error.  This is the earliest fully intact papal document against baptism of desire, with the threat of anathema.

Here is the relevant text:
Letter of Pope Siricius to Bishop Himerius of Tarragona, 385. Ed. Pierre Coustant, Epistolae Romanorum pontificum (Paris, 1721; reprint Farnborough, 1967), 623-638.

3. …  But just as we say that sacred Paschal reverence in no way ought to be diminished, so we wish for the waters of sacred baptism to be of assistance with all speed to infants, who because of age are not yet able to speak, and to those for whom in any emergency it is needed, lest the destruction of our souls be at stake if, the salutary font being denied to those seeking it, someone departing from the world loses both the kingdom and life. Whoever, indeed, suffers the peril of shipwreck, the assault of an enemy, the uncertainty of a siege, or the despair of any bodily illness and demands to be supported by the singular help of belief, at the very same moment when they demand, the advantages of the sought for regeneration should follow. Enough error on this matter! All priests who do not wish to be torn from the solidity of the apostolic rock, upon which Christ built the universal Church, should now hold the aforementioned rule.

… "the salutary font being denied to those seeking it, someone departing from the world loses both the kingdom and life."

This quote of Pope St. Siricius destroys baptism of desire for catechumens.

English translation
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/04z/z_0385-02-10__SS_Siricius__Epistola_Decretalis__EN.doc.html

Latin translation
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/04z/z_0385-02-10__SS_Siricius__Epistola_Decretalis__LT.doc.html
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true catholic

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Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2018, 08:18:43 PM »
I ask the question with much trepidation?  I myself, know the answer but I fear that I may be disappointed by some?

Pope Pius IX I Vatican Council, Session 4 : 18 July 1870

First dogmatic constitution on the Church of Christ

Chapter 4.
On the infallible teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff

1. That apostolic primacy which the Roman Pontiff possesses as successor of Peter, the prince of the apostles, includes also the supreme power of teaching. This Holy See has always maintained this, the constant custom of the Church demonstrates it, and the ecumenical councils, particularly those in which East and West met in the union of faith and charity, have declared it.

The Oath Against Modernism Pope Pius X - 1910

… Thirdly, I believe with equally firm faith that the Church, the guardian and teacher of the revealed word, was personally instituted by the real and historical Christ when he lived among us, and that the Church was built upon Peter, the prince of the apostolic hierarchy, and his successors for the duration of time. Fourthly, I sincerely hold that the doctrine of faith was handed down to us from the apostles through the orthodox Fathers in exactly the same meaning and always in the same purport. Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical’ misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously. I also condemn every error according to which, in place of the divine deposit which has been given to the spouse of Christ to be carefully guarded by her, there is put a philosophical figment or product of a human conscience that has gradually been developed by human effort and will continue to develop indefinitely. …

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not:

3 Kings 9:5 I will establish the throne of thy kingdom over Israel for ever, as I promised David thy father, saying: There shall not fail a man of thy race upon the throne of Israel. 

Rubecork quote.  "Okay, so you quoted Catholic quotes on a Catholic forum, and everyone will accept those quotes."

Rubecork, you contradict yourself!  Read your quote above^ and then look at your bad willed quote below, towards me.

Rubecork quote.  "Typical Feeneyite mistakenly thinking that the only infallibility is in the very rare solemn instances of ex cathedra papal definition, and everything else could be harmful to faith and morals. Go look up the "Ordinary & Universal Magisterium".  The early Church existed for generations before a solemn papal definition, but these members of the Church were protected by the infallibility of the Church."

You call me a feeneyite but I am not a feeneyite, I am a catholic, plain and simple.  I hold to every consistent truth of the Catholic church.  You admitted that you hold to the truth of the catholic cites that I quoted in the thread i.e. I Vatican Council, the oath against modernism by Pope St. Pius X and scripture and then you deny them by calling me a feeneyite, which means that you reject the dogma "Outside the Catholic church there is no salvation".  This is the dogma that Father Feeney defended in Boston. 

It shouldn't be a surprise that a major sex scandal came out of the Boston archdiocese years later after the fraud and farce that was perpetrated on Father Feeney, thrusting the vatican II sect into the national spotlight in the "United States" in 2002, concerning the coverup of the sex scandals of the vatican II sect.
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« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 08:30:38 PM by true catholic »
 

true catholic

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Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2018, 08:28:57 PM »
Rubecork, look at the very first council of the Catholic church.  It is the Council of Jerusalem in Acts ch.15.  Everyone came together disputing about circumcision.  But when St. Peter stood up and spoke, giving the final decision, everyone shut up!

Acts 15:6-12 And the apostles and ancients assembled to consider of this matterAnd when there had been much disputing, Peter, rising up, said to them: Men, brethren, you know, that in former days God made choice among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.  And God, who knoweth the hearts, gave testimony, giving unto them the Holy Ghost, as well as to us;  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.  Now therefore, why tempt you God to put a yoke upon the necks of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, in like manner as they also.  And all the multitude held their peace;

All infallibility emanates from the Chair of St. Peter, which has been vacant since 1958.
 

Rubecorks

Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2018, 08:35:09 PM »
True Catholic, have you read the Forums Rules?  If not, you probably should do so.
2vermont, if you go back to your comment and Rubecork, you guys brought up baptism of desire, not I! 

The rules say that one cannot doubt or deny baptism of desire here. We can talk about it because we don't doubt or deny it.

But we suspected you were leading up to its denial, and we were right.

You don't belong here.
 
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true catholic

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Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2018, 08:48:09 PM »
True Catholic, have you read the Forums Rules?  If not, you probably should do so.
2vermont, if you go back to your comment and Rubecork, you guys brought up baptism of desire, not I! 

The rules say that one cannot doubt or deny baptism of desire here. We can talk about it because we don't doubt or deny it.

But we suspected you were leading up to its denial, and we were right.

You don't belong here.

Rule number 5 states that doctrine should reign.  Is there hypocrisy in this forum?

"5.  Doctrine and Reason should reign. In any discussions, heretical statements, illogical arguments, and other fallacies must be avoided and will be removed when scandalous."

Concerning denial, I haven't denied anything, Pope St. Siricius has denied [condemned] the error of baptism of desire, not I!
Because I am subject to the office of the Papacy, I must hold to this truth.  Should I be condemned like Jesus Christ, for telling the truth.  Are you playing the part of Caiphas?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 08:53:17 PM by true catholic »
 

true catholic

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Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2018, 09:01:34 PM »
You also have not provided anything infallibly to support your position on baptism of desire, nothing.  On the other hand, I have provided evidence and facts to the contradistinction of baptism of desire.  I have not given my own opinions.
 

true catholic

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Re: Does A True Pope Infallibly Define God's Truth Or Does A Saint?
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2018, 09:11:07 PM »
Rubecork, in light of your bad will towards me, let me be very direct with you, do you deny the dogma, "Outside the Catholic church, there is no salvation"?

If you do, then you should recognize the claimants to the papacy of the Vatican II sect, as true popes.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 09:13:25 PM by true catholic »